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	<title>Comments on: Hanging in the Balance</title>
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	<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/</link>
	<description>Zen and the Art of Roleplaying</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-481</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-481</guid>
		<description>@Tommi:  No, but it&#039;s definitely a more wargame-oriented style; older editions even featured a &quot;caller&quot; role, where one player would inform the GM of the party&#039;s collective actions.  It made a lot of sense when the party was expected to include numerous henchmen and hirelings.  Not so much now.

Fourth edition actually takes a step back from third toward the game&#039;s wargaming roots, in its tactical combat system.  Measurement in squares is essentially measurement in scale inches, after all...  the more roleplay-oriented systems, on the other hand, are more rules-light than ever (to the point of being nonexistent in some cases).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tommi:  No, but it&#8217;s definitely a more wargame-oriented style; older editions even featured a &#8220;caller&#8221; role, where one player would inform the GM of the party&#8217;s collective actions.  It made a lot of sense when the party was expected to include numerous henchmen and hirelings.  Not so much now.</p>
<p>Fourth edition actually takes a step back from third toward the game&#8217;s wargaming roots, in its tactical combat system.  Measurement in squares is essentially measurement in scale inches, after all&#8230;  the more roleplay-oriented systems, on the other hand, are more rules-light than ever (to the point of being nonexistent in some cases).</p>
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		<title>By: Tommi</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-480</guid>
		<description>Scott;

I&#039;d still count it as roleplaying, but that is a matter of semantics, not content. Also, there is no absolute divide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d still count it as roleplaying, but that is a matter of semantics, not content. Also, there is no absolute divide.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-474</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-474</guid>
		<description>@greywulf:  That&#039;s a valid point, too -- balance is going to depend as much on the GM as on the system in a lot of cases.  I think HERO is generally pretty good with its point system, but even there, it breaks down if a low-cost talent is at a premium in your game.  Talking to fish is a pretty useless superpower, Aquaman... but not when we&#039;re playing on Endless Ocean World.

@Tommi:  True.  If you play D&amp;D as a wargame -- and I connote nothing negative here; it was, at its roots, and it&#039;s still a fun way to play the game if that&#039;s what you want to do -- all of those elements are a lot less painful.  But if you&#039;re playing it as an RPG, where each player develops one (or even two) character(s) in-depth, then &quot;save or die&quot; becomes much worse.  

The reason I called out S1 is because it&#039;s one of my favorite classic modules to play tournament-style with pregens (all except the demilich, whose weird &quot;invulnerability to everything but these four specific spells&quot; shtick was annoying back then and hasn&#039;t improved any with age) -- but I&#039;d never want to run a similar dungeon with a character I actually cared about.

I think one of the biggest paradigm shifts in D&amp;D was the change of the PC from something relatively interchangeable (and &quot;third person&quot;) to something more fully-developed and identified with (&quot;first person&quot;).  It started as early as second edition, but I think third is where it really became apparent.

Hm, might be another post in that...

@bonemaster:  I just realized on rereading it that I left out &quot;loot balance,&quot; too... although that&#039;s kind of a subset of power balance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@greywulf:  That&#8217;s a valid point, too &#8212; balance is going to depend as much on the GM as on the system in a lot of cases.  I think HERO is generally pretty good with its point system, but even there, it breaks down if a low-cost talent is at a premium in your game.  Talking to fish is a pretty useless superpower, Aquaman&#8230; but not when we&#8217;re playing on Endless Ocean World.</p>
<p>@Tommi:  True.  If you play D&#038;D as a wargame &#8212; and I connote nothing negative here; it was, at its roots, and it&#8217;s still a fun way to play the game if that&#8217;s what you want to do &#8212; all of those elements are a lot less painful.  But if you&#8217;re playing it as an RPG, where each player develops one (or even two) character(s) in-depth, then &#8220;save or die&#8221; becomes much worse.  </p>
<p>The reason I called out S1 is because it&#8217;s one of my favorite classic modules to play tournament-style with pregens (all except the demilich, whose weird &#8220;invulnerability to everything but these four specific spells&#8221; shtick was annoying back then and hasn&#8217;t improved any with age) &#8212; but I&#8217;d never want to run a similar dungeon with a character I actually cared about.</p>
<p>I think one of the biggest paradigm shifts in D&#038;D was the change of the PC from something relatively interchangeable (and &#8220;third person&#8221;) to something more fully-developed and identified with (&#8220;first person&#8221;).  It started as early as second edition, but I think third is where it really became apparent.</p>
<p>Hm, might be another post in that&#8230;</p>
<p>@bonemaster:  I just realized on rereading it that I left out &#8220;loot balance,&#8221; too&#8230; although that&#8217;s kind of a subset of power balance.</p>
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		<title>By: This Is A Good Post, And This Person Should Feel Good &#171; Turbulent Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-472</link>
		<dc:creator>This Is A Good Post, And This Person Should Feel Good &#171; Turbulent Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-472</guid>
		<description>[...] just wanted to point out this post and how I agree with it on a number of points, and will probably be linking dumb motherfuckers to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] just wanted to point out this post and how I agree with it on a number of points, and will probably be linking dumb motherfuckers to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bonemaster</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>bonemaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-471</guid>
		<description>This is an entry, I wish I could have written. I think your right that when people talk game balance they are not always talking about the same thing.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;bonemaster&#180;s last blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bonescroll.net/node/94&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Creating an RPG Wiki (or things to consider before you start)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an entry, I wish I could have written. I think your right that when people talk game balance they are not always talking about the same thing.</p>
<p><abbr><em>bonemaster&#180;s last blog post: <a href="http://www.bonescroll.net/node/94" rel="nofollow">Creating an RPG Wiki (or things to consider before you start)</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Tommi</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-470</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-470</guid>
		<description>About level-draining, arbitrary deaths, etc: There are assumptions that make them not utterly dysfunctional rules elements.

For example: Quick character creation makes instand death much less painful. Considering a dungeon as the unit of adventure makes spheres of annihilation, and pools with arbitrary effects when sipped from, relevant: They are not arbitrary moments of destruction, but rather elements that punish carelessness and measure the risks one is willing to take. A group of hirelings and men-at-arms make instantly deadly effects even more palatable and possibly even necessary so as to reduce that valuable resource. Playing multiple characters has much the same effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About level-draining, arbitrary deaths, etc: There are assumptions that make them not utterly dysfunctional rules elements.</p>
<p>For example: Quick character creation makes instand death much less painful. Considering a dungeon as the unit of adventure makes spheres of annihilation, and pools with arbitrary effects when sipped from, relevant: They are not arbitrary moments of destruction, but rather elements that punish carelessness and measure the risks one is willing to take. A group of hirelings and men-at-arms make instantly deadly effects even more palatable and possibly even necessary so as to reduce that valuable resource. Playing multiple characters has much the same effect.</p>
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		<title>By: greywulf</title>
		<link>http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/11/11/hanging-in-the-balance/comment-page-1/#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>greywulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://abutterflydreaming.com/?p=449#comment-469</guid>
		<description>Good stuff, and well thought out. Personally, I&#039;m not a fan of rules-dictated game balance where the system itself tries to decide what&#039;s balanced and what isn&#039;t. After all, what&#039;s balanced for one group of players might be over- or under-powered for another group depending on their tactics, skills and even mood around the table.

As a GM, I know that experience is my only measure of what&#039;s going to be an easy or difficult battle for the players - and often that&#039;s wrong with the group throwing me a curve ball. But that&#039;s a big part of the fun. I role-play FOR the unexpected, not against it.

When it comes to party balance, that&#039;s even harder to quantify. My own group doesn&#039;t want every character to be brilliant in combat because &lt;i&gt;that&#039;s not their thing&lt;/i&gt;, and feel it&#039;s taking away too much from the Fighter if (for example) the Rogue is a better... uhhhh.... fighter than they are. It&#039;s called ROLE-playing, not COMBAT-playing, and that implies each role has different strengths and weaknesses - including in and out of combat. Unfortunately, that philosophy flies in the face of current game design, it seems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff, and well thought out. Personally, I&#8217;m not a fan of rules-dictated game balance where the system itself tries to decide what&#8217;s balanced and what isn&#8217;t. After all, what&#8217;s balanced for one group of players might be over- or under-powered for another group depending on their tactics, skills and even mood around the table.</p>
<p>As a GM, I know that experience is my only measure of what&#8217;s going to be an easy or difficult battle for the players &#8211; and often that&#8217;s wrong with the group throwing me a curve ball. But that&#8217;s a big part of the fun. I role-play FOR the unexpected, not against it.</p>
<p>When it comes to party balance, that&#8217;s even harder to quantify. My own group doesn&#8217;t want every character to be brilliant in combat because <i>that&#8217;s not their thing</i>, and feel it&#8217;s taking away too much from the Fighter if (for example) the Rogue is a better&#8230; uhhhh&#8230;. fighter than they are. It&#8217;s called ROLE-playing, not COMBAT-playing, and that implies each role has different strengths and weaknesses &#8211; including in and out of combat. Unfortunately, that philosophy flies in the face of current game design, it seems.</p>
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